Joe the Plumber In-Law to Charles Keating? of the McCain S&L Scandal

More guilt by association backfired. McCain was actually censured on his role on Keating 5. And Palin was declared guilty by a bipartisan invesgiation of her state congress as well has addressing her secessionist party AIP and her husband was a registered member. These instances are DIRECT guilt.

Yet they have the chutzpah to push us on guilt on Obmaa for serving on a board with an ex-weatherman for acivities he committed 40 years ago. Who goes into a Board asking what other members did in their past?

37 votes

#1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:13 PM EDT

EllieP

Joe Wurzelbacher is cousin to Roger Wurzelbacher of Milton Ohio in-law to Charles H Keating of the SNL scandal for which John McCain was censured by congress. Now it all makes sense.

Yes, the Obama campaign was trying to get him to trash McCain and it backfired. Why do you suppose they chose to visit old Joe?

9 votes

#1.1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:56 PM EDT

Obama also invented the hurricanes that landed in Katrina as well as Gustav.

He did not visit Joe. Joe approached him to ask him the quesiton while he was campaigning on foot in the neighboorhood in preparation for the debate. Why dont we just make up all ill about Obama as answer to everything! Its ok to prefer a candidate over another. But this election is really bringing out loonies such as those who yell "terrorist" or "kill him" or post an imagined negative explanation to every situation. Problem is they dont recognize this and still keep going around blogging.

34 votes

#1.2 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:24 PM EDT

Obama also invented the hurricanes that landed in Katrina as well as Gustav.

I thought that was Bush. That's what Kanye told me, anyway.

8 votes

#1.3 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:29 PM EDT

Agent 57

ellie that's a bit of a stretch,,,,,

more likely he was approaced by the mccain camapign to ask this question. Plus he's a registered republican and has supposedly already stated he is voting for mccain,,,

26 votes

#1.4 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:29 PM EDT

simmons518

ElliePhat

Yes, the Obama campaign was trying to get him to trash McCain and it backfired. Why do you suppose they chose to visit old Joe?

duh?

Why would this make any sense? If anything it is obvious that he was a plant and that this whole thing is a scam to try to once again dupe the American public...

I am sick of mccain's dirty tricks and cannot wait until him and caribou barbie are sent packing...

25 votes

#1.5 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:43 PM EDT

Comeonpeople, if Kanye were blogging here and said that folks would make fun of him as well just as ElliePhat deserved (at least they should).

7 votes

#1.6 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:45 PM EDT

The bottomline of Joe the Plumber arguement is this..

Joe can start his business .. if Joe clears $250k, then yeah he'll pay more tax under Obama.

Let's be clear on this .. this is net income not gross income. In most 1st and 2nd year business the take home is generally below the threshold of paying an tax - and most likely getting a refund because of a business loss.

If he's taking home $250k .. then boho yes you'll have to pay more tax, and I bet all those people out of work and losing their homes feel bad for you.

10 votes

#1.7 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:57 PM EDT

Among the key factual points I read into / found of emphasis in that article:

a) Joe is not and appears never to have been trained by or affiliated with the Local union number 50. Boo hiss! Waiting for a good public relations statement from the Union that has endorsed Obama.

(The national plumber’s union, the United Association of Plumbers, Steamfitters, and Service Mechanics, endorsed Mr. Obama, it should be noted.)

b) For people looking for Wurzelbacher's name on the voting rolls, his name is mispelled, it is listed as Worzelbacher, and he did vote Republican in the March Ohio primary.

“We have his named spelled W-O, instead of W-U,” Linda Howe, executive director of the Lucas County Board of Elections, said in a telephone interview. “Handwriting is sometimes hard to read. He has never corrected it in his registration card.”

Any chance he's trying to hide from his family relationships, I wonder?

9 votes

#1.8 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:58 PM EDT

JoulesBeef

ellephat and et all.

Joe the plumber was a random guy.. whoes door got knocked on by obama along with the media.

YEs i is creapy he has some relations to keating and not sure how kevin bacon fits in bu i bet he is related as well.

the guy was a mccain supporter when he opened the door and told obama he did not like obama cause obama was goign to raise his taxes.

Now rememerb the media is here.. this is the last thing obama would want, a guy that could not be convinced on camera to support obama.. and a regular guy at that.

this is also not a mccain plant.. it woudl be impossible for them to knwo which houses obama woudl knock on.

4 votes

#1.9 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:59 PM EDT

JoulesBeef

The plan was for Obama to walk down Shrewsbury Street, knock on doors, and ask people to vote. For all intents and purposes, it was a photo op.

But then Joe came into the picture, a burly, middle-aged guy with a goatee, who approached Obama and asked him if he believes in the American dream. He proceeded to tell Obama that, after working as a plumber for 15 years, he is going to purchase his own business. The catch was that the business was worth more than $250,000 and Joe asked if he would be taxed more under Obama’s plan.

link

7 votes

#1.10 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:02 PM EDT

Joe the Plumber has sprung so many leaks for the McCain campaign today, they probably wish they had put in better quality pipe.

18 votes

#1.11 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:11 PM EDT

fyi this is direct from factcheck.org

McCain said “Joe the plumber” faced “much higher taxes” under Obama’s tax plan and would pay a fine under Obama’s health care plan if he failed to provide coverage for his workers. But Ohio plumber Joe Wurzelbacher would pay higher taxes only if the business he says he wants to buy puts his income over $200,000 a year, and his small business would be exempt from Obama’s requirement to provide coverage for workers.

Update Oct. 16: ABC News reported the morning after the debate that Wurzelbacher admitted to a reporter that he won't actually make enough from his new plumbing business to pay Obama's higher tax rates. ABC said his admission "would seem to indicate that he would be eligible for an Obama tax cut."

14 votes

#1.12 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:22 PM EDT

tgolferman

That's what I said. In serving on a school board, I considered everyone to be my friend, even though we often times voted differently on specific issues. I do not and did not know anyone's past history what so ever. If I had been given reason to wonder about them maybe I would have looked into it, but no one gave me reason to.

Republican's knew they had no chance with the train wreck that was coming. That's why they picked John McCain to throw under the bus. When you read the Rolling Stone article about the "Make Believe Maverick" you realize that he is the perfect candidate to throw under the bus.

8 votes

#1.13 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:27 PM EDT

I really feel bad for McCain .. he really should have won in 2000, and it would have been interesting to see how things would have played out if he didn't killed by the Bush train.

1 vote

#1.14 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:46 PM EDT

Fred-256289

This is nuts. If this guy turns out to be a McCain plant, I'm voting for Obama. I've been hammering Obama on here and supporting McCain, but if McCain and his campaign are stupid enough to plant a relative of Charles Keating, they're just too stupid to vote for.

15 votes

#1.15 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:59 PM EDT

Kim-401394

YOU neeed to read factcheck.org dear! Thay are NON-partisan. Just the FACTS!

"McCain said “Joe the plumber” faced “much higher taxes” under Obama’s tax plan and would pay a fine under Obama’s health care plan if he failed to provide coverage for his workers. But Ohio plumber Joe Wurzelbacher would pay higher taxes only if the business he says he wants to buy puts his income over $200,000 a year, and his small business would be exempt from Obama’s requirement to provide coverage for workers.

3 votes

#1.16 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:00 PM EDT

Bebe-2488

Speaking of the GOP,they're sinking way way low doing automated calling to voters to ask about the Ayers issue.Don't they ever give up,get it by now?Mostly over 75% of America don't want to hear about it anymore and it was prov-en last night.I feel like calling a DJ up to play Cry Me A River cos they won't stop about this issue.McCain,you got a past and even more in the present of bones and secrets(now Joe the Fraud Plumber) including Moose-lips.Your VP didn't even know where she was yesterday but the great northwest in New Hampshire and got booed and cuss at.You have people on your staff who worked for Saddam Hussein in Iraq making money and another working with Saudi Arabia.Oh did you know your VP used Alaska taxpayers money to build her newest home?The list goes on and on about you two but you're saying Obama is dishonest and so on?I think you two are growing big noses think of what you two can do with it.You have no ideas,you don't understand middle and low class America and you walk around clueless and the other bounces her head off the wall.We need change and a future for our children in America and its Obama.

2 votes

#1.17 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:22 PM EDT

Zoolopolis

Did you hear that? That bump we ran over. That was supposed to be McCain's barricade against an Obama landslide. Airs (sic.) and Joe the Plumber was supposed to be the October Surprise?

Poor McCain, he got ran over running against Bush in 2000 and he's going to get run over running away from Bush in 2008.

2 votes

#1.18 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:02 PM EDT

rube r.

Disfunctionality has become the mainstay for McCain.

"Joe the Plumber," mccain' little political sideshow turn out to be a registered republican.

He has tax problems, doesnt have a plumbers license, is divorced and he may be related to Charles Keating of the Keating/Mccain scandal. Plus he makes around 40,000

which doesnt even put him close to being taxed by the Obama cut -off of 250,000.

All the time "Joe the plumber" was talking to Obama on video tape he was way beyond his means with reagrd to taxes and social status! And while "Joe" may vote for Mccain the National Plumbers, Pipefitters Union of the U.S. endorsed Senator Obama as the best choice to lead the nation forward out of the financial mess that the conservatives have created!

Disfunctional - is the McCain word of the day!

5 votes

#1.19 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:49 PM EDT

rube r.Deleted

Roxanne2Sweet

Joe the "Plumber" seems like a Rovian campaign tactic dreamt up in the mind of Steve Schmidt.

Everything about him has turned out to be Fake. We will definately be getting 4 more years of the same, if McCain/abuse-of-power-Palin wins.

2 votes

#1.22 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:43 PM EDT

random sample

and how exactly do you spell dead meat? let the feeding frenzy begin...

1 vote

#1.23 - Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:31 AM EDT

jbdaad

Joe the plumber should see thisThe Zeitgeist Movement.

1 vote

#1.24 - Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:00 AM EDT

Grammie's Cookies

ElliePhat

You know the truth, why do you keep repeating the line:

Yes, the Obama campaign was trying to get him to trash McCain and it backfired. Why do you suppose they chose to visit old Joe?

Joe put HIMSELF into the media spot light, by walking up to Obama, who had MEGA cameras with HIM. Then McCain, WITHOUT JOE'S PERMISSION, put Joe's name and story on the AIR 20 times during the debate, causing Obama to answer back 6 times.

Also, when the media knocked on JOES door for an interview, he didn't say "no thank you, I'm a private citizen and I don't wish to be made a public figure".

Nope, he polished up his head and ran out to the waiting cameras. He then kept giving phone, radio, tv, and talk show interviews, elaborating his personal story more and more along with political beliefs. He said he likes the attention, if his 15 minutes of fame gets him more business then he's ok with it.

Pretty soon his story changed, and the media DID it's JOB. They checked what he said against the facts, they didn't match. He was asked about it and he was embarrassed. THAT'S when JOE the plumber became Joe the fool. The Media didn't make him a fool.

5 votes

#1.25 - Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:31 PM EDT

Flash-389009

Like Hunter S. Thompson wort of Richard M. Nixon when Nixon was running for President: "It just goes to show you. You just can't cure an egg suckin' dog!"

13 votes

#2 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:40 PM EDT

Blearc

I keep seeing this, granted its only been a day but personally I'm not convinced that this relationship is true. We'll see. what is true is what came out of Joe's mouth this morning. The 280k number is revenue not profit so in the end McCain is wrong Joe's not rich. And yesterday the guy said he didn't need a licence.

11 votes

#3 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:49 PM EDT

janice22

I suspect it's at the same truth level as Trig Palin not being Sarah Palin's son.

And yesterday the guy said he didn't need a licence.

He doesn't need a license for residential plumbing, just commercial. But since he's speaking out against Obama's tax plan there must be SOMETHING wrong with him.

6 votes

#3.1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:57 PM EDT

The point Janice is that he will pay less taxes (FACT) under Obama administration. Now in a make believe scenario as the one he made up one he wont (he simply put a face on the rich in the country and disguised them as a plumber like himself ).

The point of distinction is that most people 95% (and 94% of small businesses) fall under the real scenario. Less taxes for those mean more jobs. McCain taxes for the remaining 6% also mean more job. However, when 94% of small business have their job creation capacity increased compared to 6%, the economy will grow as it did under CLinton. We do not have to conjecure on this economic priciniple. The past 8 years proved the error in this Reagan era argument. It did not work. The reason why there is net job losses today was not because Bush did not get his tax cuts for the top 6%. Top down economics DOES NOT WORK. Going even further as McCain is proposing will not either.

17 votes

#3.2 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:30 PM EDT

douglasq

If Obama is raising taxes on those who make over $250,000 and in turn giving a tax break to those who don't, it can have a similar positive effect on job creation. If 95% of the people in this country have more spending power, the economy grows and businesses can expand due to increased sales and revenue.The problem with trickle down economics is that is sometimes doesn't trickle down. Let people have more to buy groceries and disposable consumer goods on the lower end and many industries benefit.

21 votes

#3.3 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:42 PM EDT

Exactly. Tax cuts for the most is more beneficial to the economics than tax cuts for the top few (besides dollars are green not red white and blue so a good portion of the largese does not go into job creation when thrown at the top but into luxuries and foreign investments and foreign vacations).

Now more of the cuts to the middle goes into increased disposable income as you poitn out for the middle but also allows some in the middle to advance into the top and some do start small business and create jobs in the process. Also more of it is almost guaranteed to be spent here in the USA. This is some of the difference we have seen in the prior 8 years and the recent 8 with top heavy tax cuts.

8 votes

#3.4 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:49 PM EDT

marcowhm

But since he's speaking out against Obama's tax plan there must be SOMETHING wrong with him.

It's not that there is something wrong him, but there is something very wrong with what he is saying. Mr. Wurzelbacher asked Senator Obama about his tax plan and has asserted that he would pay more taxes under Obama's plan because he understands the $250k limit in the Obama plan. However, what Mr. Wurzelbacher and numerous other people either don't understand or simply choose to ignore is the fact that taxes are payed based on income not on revenue. That is precisely the reason why nearly two-thirds of U.S. companies and 68% of foreign corportations do not pay federal income taxes, according to a congressional report released in August. This is due to the fact that these companies report zero net income after deducting their expenses. Link: http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/12/news/economy/corporate_taxes/index.htm?cnn=yes

15 votes

#3.5 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:50 PM EDT

The point of distinction is that most people 95% (and 94% of small businesses) fall under the real scenario.

This is what I found bizarre about McCain's angle in the debate. Who is he trying to rally with this approach? The 5-6% that are most likely already voting for him anyway? In the economy today I find it hard to believe that people will feel for a guy that makes more than $250k.

This is due to the fact that these companies report zero net income after deducting their expenses.

Yeppers .. the dude McCain that claims to hate "porkbarrels" and "earmarks" sure seems to love loopholes doesn't he?

11 votes

#3.6 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:02 PM EDT

JoulesBeef

for the simple point that the rich do travel

dollar for dollar we get back more giving the tax breaks to the poor.

when you give the rih a beak there is a small chance he willspend that extra money in europe.. he poor and middle class are less likely to go on a european junket.

they also use more of the wide variety of small busineses.. like they will use a laundry matt as well as resteraunts, they shop at both department stores and dollar stores.

and whiles it's true.. generally the poor wont give you a job..it is equally true a job cant exist without customers that can afford it;'s services.

I say generally cause when i was a cook i hired the homless to do my dishes and was just makign over min wage myself.. but i gave up part of my pay so that i woudltn have to do the dishes at this small resteraunts i worked at.

5 votes

#3.7 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:21 PM EDT

rube r.

Disfunctionality has become the mainstay for McCain.

"Joe the Plumber," mccain' little political sideshow turn out to be a registered republican.

He has tax problems, doesnt have a plumbers license, is divorced and he may be related to Charles Keating of the Keating/Mccain scandal. Plus he makes around 40,000

which doesnt even put him close to being taxed by the Obama cut -off of 250,000.

Disfunctional - is the McCain word of the day!

3 votes

#3.8 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:50 PM EDT

J. Richter

McCain was actually censured on his role on Keating 5.

Wrong. McCain was not censured and he was cleared of impropriety.

6 votes

#4 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:52 PM EDT

He received a congressional censure for poor judgement but was cleared of impropriety. The details of his dealings does show more poor judgement - benefits from Keating, several joint vacations etc. than can be shown by the record of serving on the same board with Ayers (who by then had not said he did not repent of his activity and was actually the citizen of the year 1997 and finally was actually doing charitable works).

I dont know where you are in your career but I dont know a single young person with an opportunity to head a board or a google interview) who goes in asking what other members did in the past (the law does guarantee felons can not serve).

Direct poor judgement versus indirect via association.

Involvement in at the time ongoing misconduct versus indirectly through association with individual with past misconduct.

I am shocked that any actually see them on nearly the same scale.

17 votes

#4.1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:38 PM EDT

J. Richter

He received a congressional censure for poor judgement...

Wrong again. He was not censured.

1 vote

#4.2 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:57 PM EDT

Uh.. yeah, right. Like Gov. Palin was "cleared of any wrongdoing," in her own words, but the Branchflower report clearly states she acted unlawfully. And the investigation into abuse of powers is continuing and widening in Alaska.

9 votes

#4.3 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:05 PM EDT

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/mccain/1205087,CST-NWS-fact07web.article

He was censured for bad judgement. It's stated clearly:

Look at the full definition of the word censure:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Censure:

1.
strong or vehement expression of disapproval: The newspapers were unanimous in their censure of the tax proposal.

2.
an official reprimand, as by a legislative body of one of its members.
–verb (used with object)

3.
to criticize or reproach in a harsh or vehement manner: She is more to be pitied than censured.

Obviously to attempt a response you must have read about his activities. To even defend them as not censure in context of a blog comparing them with 2nd degree guilt over an action that was significantly past tells me that you might still go ahead regardless and vote us again the same party and the same kind of economic policies as the past 8 years. This time though common sense abounds in the majority.

8 votes

#4.4 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:09 PM EDT

Breaking down the facts on McCain's role in the Keating Five scandal

philipe

J. Richter

Wrong. McCain was not censured and he was cleared of impropriety.

Here are the truths and falsehoods regarding Sen. John McCain's role in the Keating Five savings and loan scandal:

1) John McCain was "exonerated" of any role in the scandal.

False.

The Senate Ethics committee censured McCain, saying he "exercised poor judgment in intervening with the regulators."

Bob Bennett, the high-powered Democratic attorney who headed the investigation, said he recommended McCain and Democratic Sen. John Glenn be dropped from the inquiry because he found them far less culpable than the other three senators. But the Senate's Democratic majority refused his recommendation because it would have taken the only Republican out of the inquiry.

14 votes

#4.5 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:23 PM EDT

Now what I would like to know is what 4-5 people voted up philipe's comment...

10 votes

#4.6 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:24 PM EDT

J. Richter

He was censured for bad judgement.

No he wasn't. The Ethics Committee ruled that the involvement of McCain in the scheme was also minimal, and he too was cleared of all charges against him.McCain was criticized by the Committee for exercising "poor judgment" when he met with the federal regulators on Keating's behalf. The report also said that McCain's "actions were not improper nor attended with gross negligence and did not reach the level of requiring institutional action against him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keating_Five#Glenn_and_McCain:_cleared_of_impropriety_but_criticized_for_poor_judgment

Also: Censure is a warning to a member of Congress if they broke a law or committed a crime. "Censure is a procedure for publicly reprimanding a public official for inappropriate behavior. When the president is censured, it serves merely as a condemnation and has no direct effect on the validity of presidency, nor are there any other particular legal consequences. Unlike impeachment, censure has no basis in the Constitution or in the rules of the Senate and House of Representatives. It derives from the formal condemnation of either congressional body of their own members.

And, here is a list of US Senators who have been censured; http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Expulsion_Censure.htm

Notice, McCain's name is not on the list.

So, no matter what the Chicago Sun-Times might print, McCain was not censured for his involvement in the Keating Five episode.

2 votes

#4.7 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:38 PM EDT

arcanebliss

He was not censured by the senate. Click and read: http://www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/common/briefing/Expulsion_Censure.htm

McCain's name is not on the list.

3 votes

#4.8 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:44 PM EDT

Just a drive-by, but it's my understanding that McCain was not formally censured, but was criticized from the bench/panel/whatever for poor judgment.

Had to look up what McCain said afterwards in his moment of "contrition":

"The appearance of it was wrong. It's a wrong appearance when a group of senators appear in a meeting with a group of regulators, because it conveys the impression of undue and improper influence. And it was the wrong thing to do."

He should have been forced to repeat that last night.

4 votes

#4.9 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:51 PM EDT

John McCain was censured by the Senate Ethics Committee for poor judgement.

There's no ifs ands or buts about that, it's public record. You can bit** all you like about him not being on a list, you cherry-picked that definition of censure.

McCain was not exonerated. And his lawyers are incorrect in saying that they found that he "did nothing wrong."

John McCain was censured by the Senate Ethics Committee for poor judgement.

Webster's definitions below:

Exonerated - "To clear from accusation or blame; to relieve of a responsibility"

Censured - "An expression of strong disapproval or harsh criticism. An official rebuke, as by a legislature of one of its members"

10 votes

#4.10 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:55 PM EDT

can't we just close this off and say there was obviously some wrong doing going on there.

1 vote

#4.11 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:08 PM EDT

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/mccain/1205087,CST-NWS-fact07web.article

Look at the full definition of the word censure: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Censure:

1.
strong or vehement expression of disapproval: The newspapers were unanimous in their censure of the tax proposal.

2.
an official reprimand, as by a legislative body of one of its members. –verb (used with object)

3.
to criticize or reproach in a harsh or vehement manner: She is more to be pitied than censured.

There was definitely wrong doing by McCain regarding Keating 5. Look into the details of his conduct. And it is more pertinent to our current banking malpractice than a tangential relationship with Ayers.

5 votes

#4.12 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:16 PM EDT

arcanebliss

If he was censured by the Ethics committee the recommendation would have then proceeded to the Senate floor for a debate. After the debate the full senate votes for censure. If the resolution wins the senator is censured.

That didn't happen. Therefore, no censure.

1 vote

#4.13 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:21 PM EDT

arcaneblissDeleted

philipeRestored

arcanebliss

Ignorance is bliss.

1 vote

#4.15 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:45 PM EDT

My ol' daddy used to say "Son, I say, son....don't try to break up a dogfight with a flyswatter."

Regardless, the way I see it you are both correct.

McCain was censured (dictionary definition) in that he was castigated in front of the committee.

But McCain was not censured in the way the term is formally used/defined in the Senate.

So....you can't see it, but I'm sticking my tongue out at both of you. HA-ha! (Nelson Muntz).

3 votes

#4.16 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:52 PM EDT

Arcanebliss, philipe would rather hold on to a procedural argument regarding the McCain censure compared to the other Keating 5 as evidence he did no wrong in spite of evidence of serious malpractice, use of position to favor a lobbyist and receiving rewards in the process.

This is what happens when your entire belief process - in support of a candidate - is crumbling around you. No, he will rather focus life and death on the word censure procedurally even though by all definitions of the word - McCain was censured http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Censure.

I suppose philipe would be proud of an applying president with that level of censure and such record of unethical practice - as long as it wasnt put to senate vote.

4 votes

#4.17 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:01 PM EDT

Richter, I have every intention of making sure that people aren't told they're wrong when they truly are not. Schnoo,

J. Richter

McCain was actually censured on his role on Keating 5.

philipe

Wrong. McCain was not censured and he was cleared of impropriety.

It is Richter who was right and Philipe who was wrong in stating that Richter was wrong. Ah, what a spin.

3 votes

#4.18 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:36 PM EDT

arcaneblissDeleted

schnooDeleted

Hm, why is Philipe's ignorance is bliss comment restored? Interesting.

5 votes

#4.21 - Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:46 AM EDT

Yeah, me....Mr. Innocent Bystander, got non-personed in the purge. Geesh.

4 votes

#4.22 - Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:10 AM EDT

That was a mistake. I wanted to preserve the entire thread then decided against it after arcanebliss retracted hers so as to clean up the negatives. The purge button no longer works on philipe's personal response. Unless someone can get the tech folks to clean it up.

That comment has no place in the thread either just as the one that preceded it and those that followed thereafter.

However your comments arcanebliss, schnoo, and mine already made the point of this thread. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

1 vote

#4.23 - Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:17 PM EDT

Louie Lou

arcane, don't bother with phillipe. If he believes that, i can bet you he still believes in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy. Leave him be.

2 votes

#4.24 - Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:00 AM EDT

douglasq

Ummm, you might want to change the "SNL" to "S&L" -- Keating was not involved in a Saturday Night Live scandal but a Savings & Loan scandal.

4 votes

#5 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:52 PM EDT

LunarTick

Hehehe, SNL Scandal.... Now THAT would be funny.

5 votes

#5.1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:27 PM EDT

douglasq

Like maybe he once did lines with Belushi...

3 votes

#5.2 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:37 PM EDT

Savings n Loans scandal. Thank you.

3 votes

#5.3 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:39 PM EDT

Brian-497171

Joe the Plant.

14 votes

#6 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:03 PM EDT

It just makes me amazed as to why some people I've seen on this website so blindly follow these POLITICIANS. They are as shady as the sunglasses their secret service agents wear.

Politicians must think Americans are REALLY ignorant. Perfect example- watching Hillary Clinton tell America last night that Obama's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Does she think we have amnesia and don't remember the greater part of the last year and a half? She did anything BUT say he was the best thing for America. Same with Mitt and John. Is America that stupid? Apparently so.

2 votes

#7 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:33 PM EDT

No. We realize they just want to win. It is out job to evaluate them ourselves not for them to tell us. We read their policies, watch their interaction with others, judge their records past and recent and their temperaments - over a nearly two year job application process.

4 votes

#7.1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:41 PM EDT

biggerthebetter

Is there any more doubt that McCain is as shady a politician as they come??

7 votes

#8 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:39 PM EDT

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/coverstory/make_believe_maverick_the_real_john_mccain

The real McCain:

7 votes

#8.1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:42 PM EDT

Grammie's Cookies

That's a great video

2 votes

#8.2 - Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:30 PM EDT

DavidD in Detroit

This article is pretty thin, don't you think? It states "Joe Wurzelbacher is cousin to Roger Wurzelbacher of Milton Ohio in-law to Charles H Keating of the SNL scandal for which John McCain was censured by congress." Joe is the cousin of a man who is an in-law of Keating? Are you serious?? Isn't Obama related to Brad Pitt? Isn't Sarah Palin related to FDR? What the hell is your point? Does his ancestry make him less of an American? Does his pedigree not hold up to yours? Is he not entitled to have an opinion? Does he not have the right to dare to ask Obama a question when Barack walks down his street and in front of his house? Who the hell are you people?!

3 votes

#9 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:47 PM EDT

simmons518

DavidD in Detroit

Who the hell are you people?!

Take a deep breath and step away from your computer....

LOL

11 votes

#9.1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:53 PM EDT

Only in so far as it again highlights the Keating 5 scandal - an acitivty more pertinent adn closer to the recent economic malaise.

More research (trust me some will do it even though Joe's hypotetical was actually all false in the first place and a realistic presentation would have shown him - and 95% - of the country benefitting more from Obama tax plan) might show the relationship tenous or close. It might not really matter much in November either way. The point should be the hypothetical and the reality and folks should judge for themselves which is better for the country.

4 votes

#9.2 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:55 PM EDT

dcstone01

To the last question. We are Americans and have the right to find out about these associations. Good, bad or indifferent.

Clearly it was McCain campaign that bought into the guilt by association' line. Sooooo, who is to say that somehow, some GOP people and the spin miesters tried to send this 'Joe the Plumber' out to ask the questions. Since there is an association straight back to being a person who is related to Keating, it doesn't take one long to get the implication, and figure out for themselves that Joe was a 'plant'.

6 votes

#9.3 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:02 PM EDT

I love the fact that the Republican backers can never handle when things are thrown back at them. This connection has about as much weight as the William Ayers garbage.

7 votes

#9.4 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:05 PM EDT

Cliff CarsonDeleted

st louis actor

Let's pretend (just for a second) that he really is a cousin of the guy. It seems FAR more plausible to me that he took it upon himself to somehow uphold the family honor to dis Obama than it was an actual plot. I mean, what were the odds Obama would be in his neighborhood on a spur of the moment.

In the end, it doesn't matter and really, neither does Joe the Plumber. I wish everyone would stop talking about him and talk about real problems. Whaddya say folks?

1 vote

#11 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:54 PM EDT

Probably true that he took it upon himself as a stauch republican to create a false scenario that placed the rich in the context of a middle class person (rather than the 95% and the real plumbers that we should have been talking about).

5 votes

#11.1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:04 PM EDT

Ya know, we had some plumbing work done recently. And the guy who did the work had to drive home in 3 hours of bumper-to-bumper traffic, with gas at $3.80 a gallon at that point, because he couldn't afford to buy a house in the same place where he works. That doesn't seem right to me. It just doesn't.

#11.2 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:09 PM EDT

LBPLaw

I know its just a coincidence. Palin talks about "Joe" sixpack. "Joe" the plumber just happens to approach the day before the debate with McCain. You can connect the dots from Keating to McCain and Keating to "Joe". "Joe" just happens to bring up the issue that McCain just happens to want to bray on about in the debate. McCain just happens to mention "Joe" 21 times. and how many times did Plain say "Joe".

But then I just might be overly suspicious.

3 votes

#11.3 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:07 PM EDT

LBPLaw

But then I just might be overly suspicious.

#11.4 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:07 PM EDT

LBPLawDeleted

AverageJane2

Coincidence? Maybe so, but McCain was an idiot for not to checking him out before making him a household name. All but guaranteeing the Keating 5 is a topic of discussion in the final stretch.

3 votes

#11.7 - Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:06 AM EDT

HAhahahahahahaha!!! Man can you guys reach for a story. God love you liberals, you make me laugh evryday!

2 votes

#12 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:54 PM EDT

Subsequent revelations will judge that one way or another.

Teh important things is the guy constructed a fraudulent scenario no matter. True plumbers and 95% of the country will get more tax cuts under Obama than McCain and this will benefit the whole country iincluding the top 6% that he disguised in plumber garb. In a collapsing economy with weakening middle class, even the hypotethic Joe Plumber will soon have his business fail in a tanking economy. More tax cuts to the most is better than more to the top few after the Bush 8 years of more cuts to the top that has seen net job losses.

3 votes

#12.1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:08 PM EDT

Just more smoke to cover Sen. Obama's real agenda. Use taxes to punish the wealthy and redistribute their earnings.

It's okay I understand you don't understand people having more money in their businesses to hire more people. I know you can't understand that cutting Capital gains taxes to stimulate the market, I mean that would make no sense at all because we need those taxes to give to those 40% of Americans that don't pay taxes. Because gosh darn it all the wealthy haven't worked hard enough for us all.

True plumbers and 95% of the country will get more tax cuts under Obama than McCain and this will benefit the whole country iincluding the top 6% that he disguised in plumber garb.

How is it the BHO is going to cut taxes on 95% of Americans when 40% don't pay taxes in the first place.

I GOT IT!!!! Obama is Robin Hood!!!!

ROTFLMAO....Liberal thinking at it's finest.

1 vote

#12.2 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:12 PM EDT

Conservative, trickle down, Reagan-Bush-McCain thinking at its finest on display over 6 of the last 7 years is why we are bailing out our entire economic system and why we have had net over 500,000 job losses in the Bush administration.

If the remaining 95% of the country do not have tax cuts or increased displosable income or even jobs, who is going to spend for the rich whose wealth will not be redistributed. Who will become the rich? Where did they come from? If we have taxes same as during the Clinton administration for the top 6% is that redistribution? Well, most would prefer that economy in which we did not have to socialize our banks and our insurance companies.

3 votes

#12.3 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:17 PM EDT

You bet it is redistribution when you increase the taxes on the top 6% and write a check for the 40% of those who do not pay taxes.

You still haven't answered my question. How will he cut taxes for 95% of the country when 40 % don't pay?

WHY IS HE GOING TO RAISE TAXES IN A TROUBLED ECONOMY ANYWAY?

The last time we heard all this (1992) tax the rich to give to the poor and no taxes on the middle class, Bill Clinton slipped it to us like an intern in the oval office. I don't trust BHO on this one.

1 vote

#12.4 - Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:55 AM EDT

Most will give a thing or two to get back the Clinton economy with this actual socialism that Bush lower taxes on the rich has brought us.

2 votes

#12.5 - Fri Oct 17, 2008 4:29 PM EDT

Ahhhhhh No...

True Socialism is Obama's tax policy of Redistribute the Wealth as he has proposed to Joe.

1 vote

#12.6 - Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:06 AM EDT

http://taxcut.barackobama.com/

Barack Obama is no more a Socialist than John McCain is a Fascist. I'm really tired of Americans utilizing terms they simply couldn't possibly understand unless they have lived under Socialist or Fascist rule.

8 votes

#12.7 - Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:39 AM EDT

Grammie's Cookies

dwolfkeeper If you simply cut & paste 1-liners from McCain's speeches you are accepting them as fact. You lose credibility when you repeat false statements like this one:

"How is it the BHO is going to cut taxes on 95% of Americans when 40% don't pay taxes in the first place

http://www.barackobama.com/taxes/
The Obama/Biden Tax plan includes:

Cut taxes for 95% of WORKERS and their families with a tax cut of $500 for workers or $1,000 for working couples

WORKERS are Americans that PAY taxes, as opposed to those who do NOT. McCain lied, deliberately. He does this often. It has been called distorting, or misrepresenting. I believe that McCain knows the facts and chooses to tell YOU and the rest of his supports a lie, and YOU in turn come here and repeat it.

If you would like to know YOUR new tax cut under the Obama/Biden tax plan:

3 votes

#12.8 - Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:03 PM EDT

jbdaad

Ahhhhhh No...

True Socialism is Obama's tax policy of Redistribute the Wealth as he has proposed to Joe.

I`ld like to poll AIG executives and see how many were Repukicans. Top 6% have shown that they are incapable of not only rational thought but any sense of commen decency.

1 vote

#12.9 - Sun Oct 19, 2008 9:45 AM EDT

Cliff CarsonDeleted

CLM-256248

And yet, McCain and Palin have both continued to talk about Joe the Plumber today in their stump speeches. Has anyone told them yet??

2 votes

#14 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:32 PM EDT

Well they kept talking about Ayers even thought the association was not substantial or pertinent to his past activities. The damage is done. Its time to ram it through.

This is a campaign that continues to spend money in Iowa - while railing agionst farm and ethanol subsidies in nearly every debate, a state McCain blew off in the primaries, and where he is down double digits. (compare with Barack who cautiously refrains from spiinning his time and resources in WV or Kentucky while his lead grows). The guy does not understand the difference between strategy and tactics - thank God we wil not have such a backward stategist again for four years.

2 votes

#14.1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:39 PM EDT

It's actually pretty clear - including last night - that McCain doesn't care about the answers, he'll keep asking the same questions.

Obama won't raise taxes, immediately after McCain says he will. Obama conceded the surge was a suprising success in the debate, then Palin says he's yet to say it was a success, and then McCain said the same thing in debate #2.

It's pretty obvious that McCain's learned alot from the attacks that Bush did to him, just keeping saying it and eventually if people hear it enough they will believe it's the truth.

4 votes

#14.2 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:08 PM EDT

MAGGIPZ

Since I saw someone checked the Lucas County Board of elections and said he wasn't registered to vote I thought to be fair I'd check. I'd really hate to be that guy if that was true.

The news says he's on Shrewsbury Dr in Holland Ohio, Lucas county. I looked it up on the state of ohio board of elections web site and there is no one on Shrewsbury by that last name on their list. I wasn't sure if he would be listed as Joe or the auditor office has the owner as Samuel J.

1 vote

#15 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:36 PM EDT

Keep up the good work folks. Kepp us updated just for the knowledge.

Still though, the guy's hypothetics is false (and can not be constructed in a reality for 95% of the country) and the actual reality represent more benefit from Obama policies.

1 vote

#15.1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:41 PM EDT

MAGGIPZ, I think the NYT article explains that the person who lives at the relevant address is registered, but his name is misspelled on the official record.

#15.2 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:14 PM EDT

JaRagga

J. Richter- Please be more careful and list this as rumor at this point, as there is not solid proof yet of a relationship and your article heading is somewhat misleading to say the least. Furthermore, the article you point to was originally posted in 1991 and only makes a passing reference to Robert Wurzelbacher who may or may not actually be related to good ol' Joe.

Again, just asking you to lable this as rumor until there is proof of the relationship.

1 vote

#16 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:37 PM EDT

That's why there is a question mark in the title. I will add the words that this is according to Einstadt - the conservative blogger.

More important is the fact that guy's hypothetics is false (and can not be constructed in a reality for 95% of the country) and the actual reality represent more benefit from Obama policies.

2 votes

#16.1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:43 PM EDT

All this plumber business aside, does anyone know where Obama is getting his figure about 98% of small businesses making less than $200,000? I have tried to find those statistics everywhere, and I can't find them. I just find this very hard to believe. I know in my city, there are a lot of small businesses that I don't think would function if they made less than $200,000. Anybody know where he got the figure?

1 vote

#17 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:50 PM EDT

This would be available pretty easy for the candiates in the tax records. You must remember this is $200k personal take home **AFTER** expenses, this is not gross revenue.

Most SB will not be that high -- in fact if they are that high they should incorporate as the taxes are better at that point anyway.

1 vote

#17.1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:13 PM EDT

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/15/smallbusiness/small_biz_taxes_factcheck.smb/index.htm

98.6%

Hopefully, you'll read it with an open mind. The trickle down top heavy tax cuts of the past 8 years has only contributed to job losses, weak dollar and conomy, huge deficit (from a surplus in the Clinton years with more economically balanced taxation) and the eventual bailout of our entire eocnomic system and we need to acknowledge this and retrack from those policies so we can have a stronger country (a weak economy very bad on its own also eventually results in a weak country).

5 votes

#17.2 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:32 PM EDT

It really only makes sense when you think about it. It's the bottom 95% that supports the top 5% by purchasing their items. Without the 95% there is no 5%.

3 votes

#17.3 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:48 PM EDT

Thanks, J. Richter!

#17.4 - Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:03 AM EDT

Bill from Buffalo, NYDeleted

Bill from Buffalo, NY

You just gotta love the NY Times. Let's get our beat reporters out in the field to "find out who this Joe the Plumber really is!" This is the story America really wants to hear, because he has to have some connection to one of the campaigns. Conspiracy theorists unite!! Yes, news flash, I'm being facetious. Listen to this dialogue that is going on in America these days. We are more divided now than ever. Whomever wins this election will not have a mandate from the people. Why is Obama's race an issue in this election? This is 2008! Whether or not I vote for him will have nothing to do with his race. Listen to him. In his comments to "Joe" he uses the term "spread the wealth around", search for the unedited conversation and you will hear it yourself. Are we not a capitalist society? Is he advocating socialism? People, do your homework. Redistributing wealth to the have-nots to "even things up" is one of the basic tenets of socialism. We have become a society of excuse makers. Racked up too many bills, declare bankruptcy. My kid only shot up the school because video games have too much violence, it wasn't his fault. Spill hot coffee in your lap because you're clumsy, sue McDonald's, get a million dollars, it's their fault. We need to take responsibility at every level. Not just the Wall Street CEO's who screwed us with their $19 million severence packages but also the Joneses who just had to buy that $250,000 home on their $40,000 a year income. Lastly, America IS the greatest nation in the Universe, but we have to get out of this two party system. Barack and McCain are the two best people we could come up with? In the nation with the greatest minds in history this is what we got. For Pete's sake, I can't go to the store and buy a television without looking at 45 different models, but I've got two choices when my children's future is riding on this election. Pretty sad. You all should take a long hard look at Ralph Nader and ask yourselves, "Why wasn't he included in any of these debates or discussions. What are the Dems and the GOP so afraid of that they went to so much trouble to exclude him from this entire race?" People, wake up and ask yourself, "Are we still a society based on the premise, 'we the people' ?" I still haven't decided who to vote for yet. Keep the dialogue going, but let's get it to something real and credible.

1 vote

#19 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:18 PM EDT

http://www.eisenstadtgroup.com/2008/10/15/joe-the-plumber-wurzelbacher-related-to-charles-keating-oops/.

THe NY times article is from 1991. They have NOT yet written on this issue.

The actual claim of kinship and the revelation was from a conservative blogger MArtin Einsenstadt. You might have sincerely overlooked parts of the post.

BTW, socialism is what the Bush-McCain, top heavy tax cuts of 6 of the last 7 years have led us to in the current bailout of our entire economic system and net job losses and a weaker dollar and net deficit, and more of our persons beholden to China.

If the top 6% paying a little closer to the tax rate they paid under the Clinton years when we had a surplus and net job gains, then who would not prefer that version of capitalism and growth (no matter which dictionary you take it to and redefine it as socialism) than this version that results in socialism of the losses of the rich.

4 votes

#19.1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:42 PM EDT

Bill from Buffalo, NY

J. Richter, How long have you been working on the Obama campaign? Why don't you stick to the pertinent facts instead of conjecture and your warped opinion of how Obama's spread the wealth plan will be received by the masses. I certainly don't feel that I should be penalized for being successful so that folks like yourself, who spend more time blogging than earning an honest living ,can get a little windfall off my coattails. Go back to school, which is probably where you've spent most of your time, and study socialism, it's scarily similar to Obama's spread the wealth attitude. You can dress a pig in a tuxedo, but it's still a pig. I also like the way you simply ignore the whole section of my post related to Ralph Nader. Typical of a Liberal like yourself. Let's just ignore the opportunity to engage in some real discussion.

#19.2 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:26 PM EDT

dcstone01

"Go back to school, which is probably where you've spent most of your time, and study socialism, it's scarily similar to Obama's spread the wealth attitude."

Bill, just a little fyi, Bush's bailout is 'Socialism'. We have done it in the past with good results to help during the Great Depression. Perhaps you should go back to school and learn about our economic history.

And another thing, there is a Code of Honor, please read it.

3 votes

#19.3 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:19 PM EDT

"spread the wealth attitude" ??

Is that not what the whole taxation system is built upon? If it wasn't then everybody would pay the exact same amount every year. But instead people are called upon to - yes - spread the wealth and help out those that are not as fortunate.

1 vote

#19.4 - Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:38 AM EDT

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/16/AR2008101603436.html

Bill, I am not a liberal. I have a job, went to college, and have a couple of qualifications at the postgraduate level including an MBA but I will try not to be personal. It is not about me. It is about selecting the best to run our coutnry so our pockets stops suffering. I trust that is your motive on this blog as well. However, you did not address the fact that your response was knee-jerk and grounded fundamentally in error in stating the motive to NYT when the article references was from 1991 and they had nothing on Joe at the point of posting.

I have been a conservative in the past but have figured out the past 8 years why the trickle down aspect does not work. (However, if you believe Clinton ratio of taxation betwen rich and poor is spreading the wealth and that it hurt the economy or hurt the rich compared to Bush that gave more to the rich and hurt everyone including the rich, then we will have had a respectful but fundamental disagreement. Otherwise we can focus on teh phrase spread the wealth or look at what they mean by their proposed application of their taxation policies.)

I see Obama's policies as best for the country and he having the better character and temperament that suits the job. I remain socially conservative and see McCain's character for what it is - bereft of much integrity and honor at this point and short on rational and strategic planning and ability.

I found this editorial an extremely useful summary that reflects a fair appraisal in the most parts to why Obama would make the better president. Although in my opinion, the choice is not that close:

2 votes

#19.5 - Fri Oct 17, 2008 12:41 PM EDT

Bill from Buffalo, NY

Richter, you make some excellent talking points and I should not have made a personal comment about you, I apologize. I guess that my frustration is over this two party system we have in this country. The real problem we have is that we are limited to whomever the dems and GOP thrust upon us. As far as taxes go, why do we rarely hear of any real consideration regarding a flat tax. Didn't Forbes try to run on such a platform? (several years ago). I also want to point out that there are no news outlets that are fair and balanced any more. It's sad when you turn on any news channel and within minutes you can tell which candidate they're backing. If I want to hear anything good about John McCain I just tune into Fox news. If I like Obama I'll watch ABC. It's almost comical. I would love to know if anyone has even considered a third or alternate candidate?

1 vote

#19.6 - Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:55 PM EDT

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/06/25/obamas-state-senate-years-show-bipartisan-record/

You are right. One possibility: simply go to the website of both and look at their plans.

Also, if you want to know about their characters and past, look at publications before they became candidates or before things got so hateful. For instance, FoxNews, yes, had an article summarizing Obama record for 8 years at IL.

For McCain you can also dig around although you would have to go pretty far since he has sort of been contesting since before 2000.

1 vote

#19.7 - Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:27 PM EDT

godblessedDeleted

Head-Negro

get you're comments in quick, this seed, will self destruct in 5 seconds

it seems some people don't like the connection

#22 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:37 PM EDT

biggerthebetter

If they get your seed taken down, put up another. I did.

#22.1 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:59 PM EDT

http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2008/10/16/2006495-joe-the-plumber-or-joe-the-gop-plant

How did you learn this Head-Negro?

1 vote

#22.2 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:06 PM EDT

Head-Negro

one of the first articles linking him to Keaton, was taken down earlier in the day

1 vote

#22.3 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:23 PM EDT

nearing

Very interesting.

I would like to see some more investigation in to this.

3 votes

#23 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:53 PM EDT

nearing

J. Richter, you are allowed to delete spam (#21 & 20)

and to delete duplicate postings. ( #18)

2 votes

#24 - Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:55 PM EDT